This statement: “But the point is that we both know that the Chachamim knew far better than either of us what they were doing.” Negates the entire Torah. Halacha is determined by living sages not dead sages. Dead sages, their opinions serve as legal precident, but each generation has its Poskim. Rashi for example in his commentary on the Chumash declares a statement made by the targum as incorrect. An earlier generation does not have a lock upon logic, ant the Oral Torah revealed unto Moshe at Sinai is LOGIC.

good week to ya!

I think you’re missing the point here.

The point is that Chaza”l chose to call Bnei Noach “Children of Noah” and NOT “Children of Avraham.”

I can even think of kabbalistic reasons for this, see Ramchal’s “Derech Hashem.”

But the point is that we both know that the Chachamim knew far better than either of us what they were doing. Pardon me, but I don’t see why you think you have some novelty that the Chachamim didn’t already consider.

They weren’t just “brilliant” sages - we’re talking about people who had access to prophecy, even as late as the Anshei Knesses HaGedolah!

Hence, I really do feel that this discussion has already become, as you said, “a dog chasing it’s tail.”

But I thank you for opening up the discussion in the first place. It certainly was interesting.

Gmar chasima tova!

Thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate the opportunity for discussion. However, I respectfully disagree with your idea.

Although the use of prat and klal is clever here, I believe that the Jewish Sages knew far more Torah than any of us may ever know. If they used the term “Bnei Noach,” they did so for very sound, thought out reasons. We should bear that in mind whenever we think something our Sages put in place seems “out of date” or “inaccurate.”

So why did the Sages use the term “Bnei Noach” and not “Bnei Avraham” to describe those Gentiles who accepted Torah and the Mitzvot?

One possible reason may be the importance of maintaining clear unadulterable distinctions between the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.

Jews are descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, as Jews state in their daily prayers. For Bnei Noach to be relabeled as “Bnei Avraham” would blur that distinction. Especially since Jewish converts are referred to as “Bnei Avraham & Sarah” as you know.

Secondly,
the Jewish logic of klal (general concept) and prat (specific concept) are employed only when the pshat (basic textual reading) is not clear, or has extra-ordinary gramatical patterns that exist for the sake of teaching us more than the pshat would teach us alone, or if we are for some other reason logically forced to deviate from the pshat (including because of mesora).

However, if the pshat is enough, we use the pshat. This is encompassed by what our Sages have said, “Ayn Mikra Yotzei LeYadai Peshuto” - “a verse is not removed from it’s simple meaning.”

With that in mind, I will suggest that the Jewish Sages used the term “Bnei Noach” and not “Bnei Avaraham” for a very simple and logical reason:

Every single human being alive today descends from Noach and his wife. Not every human being descends from Avraham.

Therefore, it is more accurate to label humanity in general as “Bnei Noach” and Jews in particular as “Bnei Yisrael.”

I think the essence of what you’re saying, however, is that the path of a Noahide today more resembles one of the “nefesh asher asu b’charan” - more resembles one of Avraham’s followers, those whom he brought back to Monotheism, to the path of the One God who-spoke-and-the-world-came-into-being. That Noahides today resemble those followers of Avraham, perhaps more than they resemble Noah.

I think there is truth that.
Thank you for the discussion.

Daniel